I am quite nervous to ask this question having read the last few issues of Dogs Today! But what is so wrong about us trying to be the top dog, surely wolves have alpha males and females. Don't we have to be dominant to keep all the pack in order?
All this reward based stuff is all very lovely in principle, but if we're not assertive surely these dogs will walk all over us.
Those insiders that understand the ins and outs of the divide can you explain it to us normal pet owners who don't know the difference - why shouldn't we be listening to the dog whisperers?
And who is on which side?
For example is Victoria Stillwell on the good side?
Is Jan Fennell? In or out?
Can't really get my head around what is acceptable and isn't.
Smacked bottoms and rolled up newspapers - definitely out?
Choke chains - obviously a no no?
Always going through doors first? Always eating first? Not allowing dogs up on the bed or sofas. Dark side or good side?
What if a dog keeps barking. biting - is correction or punishment ever acceptable to the reward-based folk?
Please help guide a novice pet owner who is struggling to understand what all the fuss is about!
I watch Cesar Millan on TV and really enjoy it. Just can't see what this big split in the behaviour world is all about. Isn't it just a ratings clash? He's the big star at the moment and we Brits just love chopping down those tall poppies! Or is there really some science that shows that reward based is more effective than punishment?
Name and address withheld! (I'm a coward!)
The first thing is to understand that there is science behind animal behavior which has shown how animals learn new behaviors, how they change how they feel about things, why they are more likely to do one thing as opposed to another when given a choice, etc. There is also research and data about wolves, wolf packs and wolf behavior, which contradict most of what is said about pack leaders, alphas, etc.
ReplyDeleteMost of the stuff that CM expouses is not based on any of the above. It can resonate for us, but that does not make it 'why' dogs do what they do. And dogs, bless their doggie hearts and minds, have managed to learn what we want from them DESPITE how we train them, not because of HOW we train them.
In a nutshell, dogs repeat behaviors they get rewarded for (as do you and I). The trick is knowing what the dog is finding rewarding. Chasing squirrels or cars is rewarding to many dogs, as is growling at someone that scares them if it makes that person or dog go away.
Probably your best bet is to do more reading about why positive reinforcement training is the best way to help dogs learn new behaviors. Keep in mind that dogs are not just machines that 'behave' (or not as the case may be) but that they are also animals with complex emotions and when we work with a dog and use force, punishment, bullying or intimidation to get them to do what we want we are also affecting these emotions. You might start with Karen Pryor's latest book Reaching The Animal Mind.
To answer your final question. Yes there is science that shows that reward based training is more effective than punishment. Police dogs, military dogs, service dogs are all being trained using positive reinforcement training.
This is not to say that punishment is not a powerful tool for changing behavior, it is however most often not used appropriately and I'd guess that most of time dogs have no clear idea what they are being punished for so simply stop offering any behavior, which to the untrained eye can look like success- until the next time the dog repeats the unwanted behavior or replaces that behavior with another unwanted one. This also does not take into consideration the effect of this kind of punishment on the relationship a dog has with their handler.
I would suggest that you do some reading and research on your own since this is a hot button topic which is most often debated without any reference to the data and science behind why dogs and people for that matter, learn best when they are rewarded for doing the right thing as opposed to being punished for doing the wrong thing. You might also want to be clear on the fact that positive reinforcement training does not include allowing a dog to constantly repeat an inappropriate behavior, it just means that a handler has to think of ways to prevent, stop or interrupt this behavior without resorting to punishment. It's far easier for most owners and unfortunately trainers as well to punish or impose their will, calmly or not, in order to get a dog to do what they want.
Look for books by Jean Donaldson, Patricia McConnell and Suzanne Clothier for a start. I will guess that once you get your head around this you'll be excited to learn more about positive reinforcement training and why it is used by zoos and marine mammal trainers to get both simple and complex behaviors from their animals.
Google CM a bit, then you may begin to understand why some of us take him with a pinch of salt.
ReplyDeleteThe main point I always try to make to everyone is to take everything with a pinch of salt. If you cant see why to do something, then question it.
I've noticed this campaign against the so-called "dominance" dog trainers has been gathering momentum and I am totally perplexed by it.
ReplyDeleteThe inference is always that these people are cruel and using outdated methods.
I just cannot understand the backlash against Cesar Millan. Ok, I know he used an electric collar on a dog and forcibly held another down, but these were dogs that probably nobody else could tackle.
His everyday methods to me seem to be incredibly kind to dogs because he is always seeing things from their point of view and interpreting their body language so well.
I remember when Jan Fennell came in for a hell of a slating from people going on about how wrong it was because it was based on wolf behavior. Well, I say, so what? I don't care what it is based on, it certainly works and probably because she, although different from Cesar, is so good at understanding dogs.
Both he and she use body language to convey to the dog that they are leader. Well, what is wrong with that? Surely it's better than shouting, or over-using treats?
My previous dog was considered vicious by people when he was young and he did indeed bite several.
I read Jan Fennell's book and did exactly what she said. He was transformed!!! People couldn't believe the calm happy dog was the same one.
What JF showed me, and what Cesar does too, is what I had been doing wrong, which was to fuss over him, over-protect him and not act in any way like a leader. He used to demand attention when he wanted it and I'd always give in.
I wonder if some of these people aren't perhaps a bit envious of these trainers' success.
What I'd like to see, perhaps in Your Dog magazine, is a comparison of methods.
There's much written of what is wrong with Cesar Millan and co's techniques but these other people don't seem to offer up any alternative.
From what I can see, the dominance people, like Cesar & JF, understand that you need to get your relationship with your dog right and this depends on how you behave.
The other "kindness" people seem to think that obedience training solves everything. Well, I don't think it does. You have to get your relationship right first, otherwise it's a waste of time.
To give an example, my friend's dog got attacked really badly by springer spaniel, which went on to attack various other dogs out walking.
What does its owner do? She takes it to obedience classes. Well, that dog has risen to the top of the class - lots of prizes - but she still can't take it out walking with other dogs. Its problems have not been resolved.
Kindness by itself certainly doesn't work. You have to stop a dog doing what you don't want it to do, which means you have to dominate it to a certain extent. But this does not mean you cannot have fun with your dog, and lots of cuddles.
My dog sleeps on my bed, by the way.
I'm so glad the anonymous person above brought this up because I was longing to myself.
Julia Lewis
PS, sorry Beverley, I meant your magazine, Dogs Today, not the other one!!
ReplyDeleteJulia
As a dog trainer who does private consults in people's homes, I can tell you one of the main reasons I get called in is because of the disconnect people often (not always) experience with their dogs when they follow the dog whisperer's beliefs. It is no fun to think someone, whether it be dog or human, is waiting for the right moment to take over the household so it sets us up for conflict with our dogs to always be thinking that way. Run some experiments yourself and see if a) letting your dog exit and enter doorways before you vs. you always being first makes a difference in overall behaviour, b) you eating first vs. the dog eating first makes a difference in overall behaviour. Both of these activities may teach your dog some self control but does that make you "dominant?"
ReplyDeleteDominance in the wild comes down to a control of resources and by our very nature we control all of our dogs' resources so we are already dominant without all the use of force.
Check out http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm for a detailed overview of why CM is causing so much debate.
When people claim that following the example of Caesar, Jan Fennell etc has transformed their doggie relationship, I think that in the majority of cases this simply means that they have started to consistently reinforce rules and boundaries. This is actually a vital aspect of success using positive reinforcement too!! Incidentally, despite favouring positive reinforcement my dogs are NOT allowed in the bedrooms or on the sofas - for no other resaon than I prefer to keep them dog-hair free...
ReplyDeleteTo understand dogs we must understand at least a little about wolf behaviour so we can appreciate how different dog behaviour is. Despite some peoples' misconceptions, an alpha wolf does not 'dominate' his pack nor dictate what they can and cannot do; instead he guides them in a benevolent manner. The primary role of an alpha male and female is to breed and produce off-spring which is why authorities on free-roaming wolves now call them the 'breeding pair'. A wolf pack is usually made up of family members, they are sociable, and all co-operate in hunting, rearing cubs, and guarding their territory. The alpha male or female do not necessarily eat first. The alpha may not even be at the kill site and one wouldn't reasonably expect wolves to sit around waiting for him to turn up before they start eating. Also if there are cubs to feed, they will be fed first.
ReplyDeleteWith that in mind, the perception that we must be 'alpha' over our dog and be 'dominant' over him does not fit the wolf pack model that is erroneously applied to domestic dogs. A dog's behaviour and life values are so different to that of a wolf, that to treat a dog as a wolf is a big mistake, can be psychologically detrimental to the dog and result in a poor relationship with its owner. There is now a lot of scientific evidence that shows dogs are part of our social group - not part of our 'pack'.
The so-called 'rules' to show the dog who is 'leader' i.e the owner eating first; not allowing dogs on the bed or sofa; going through doorways before the dog, and a load more, are supposed to be based on wolf behaviour. But they mean nothing to our dogs and don't even apply to free-roaming wolves.
As a previous respondant has mentioned, scienctific evidence has shown that reward based training is more effective than punishment. This does not mean you have to stuff food in a dogs mouth every time he gets something right. Food is phased out and replaced with verbal prasie. One of the problems with training by punishment (choke chains etc) is that the dog may comply only to avoid the unpleasant consequences if it doesn't. Do we really want a dog that is constantly fearful of his owner?
One thing I believe some 'behaviourists' get totally wrong (and can be seen on TV most weeks) is something called an Alpha Roll. This entails the owner placing the dog on its back or side in a 'submissive' position. If a dog (or wolf) is faced with a potential threat, one of his options is to voluntarily show submissive behaviour. A dog does not physically force another dog into a submissive position. So why do we do it? Is the dog's tail, ears and eyes, positioned to represent a submissive posture? Just forcing the dog on its side is not making it be submissive. The dog may resign itself to the situation and the owner assumes the Alpha Roll has worked. Alternatively the dog may retaliate and bite the owner (which can be seen on TV most weeks).
Just because the domestic dog is descended from the wolf does not mean we have to treat it as a domesticated wolf because, quite simply our dogs are not wolves - domesticated or otherwise. We don't have to be a 'leader' over our dog. We have to be a 'reponsible dog owner' with all that entails; including proper socialisation at the right age and training the dog for whatever the owner requires from him, both outside the house and inside.
I fully appreciate that there are two sides to every argument and not everyone will agree with what I have written. But please remember that a dog does not have to be 'dominated'.
To add to the list of books worth reading are, 'How Dogs Learn' by Burch & Bailey; 'Dominance: Fact or Fiction' by Barry Eaton, and 'The Domestic Dog' edited by James Serpell
Barry Eaton Dip. CAPBT
I am a trainer myself that goes into the clients home on a 1-2-1 basis, and if I had a £1 for every time I hear they have tried the 'shushing thing' from Caesar Milan but surprisingly has not worked, I would be on my way to becoming a rich woman! I think in today's world the word 'Dominance' & 'Pack Leadership' have become buzz words with much stigma attached to it. Back in the day of Barbara Woodhouse, trainers of those times regularly used the terms dominating your dog and pack leadership, this meant; no getting on sofas or getting on the bed; eating before your dog, getting in your dogs' bed and even worse pinning your dog down to the ground to show him who is boss. I remember as a 13 year old going with my parents to puppy class with our GSD and told to roll up a newspaper to smack him over the nose when he is bad! This is totally unnecessary and has proven not to work and in fact I've had clients who have been bitten trying this. I even had a client come to me in such a nervous state because the training class she had been attending told her to pick her Boxer up by the jowls and shake him because he was not listening!
ReplyDeleteI am a trainer in favour of reward based training and use it myself to teach a dog a new behaviours. But my main method of training is teaching people to understand the canines mind in simple terms and use your body language effectively to help communicate with him. Training can be made over-complicated and it is not necessary. I agree a dog has learnt to repeat a behaviour with a reward given. However, I also believe it is important to be a leader to your dog(s). Leadership is not about dominance any more, it is simply about setting boundaries and giving your dog some direction in life. If you want your dog on the sofa, fine let him but perhaps give him an 'Up' command and an 'Off' command so that you don't get issues when trying to get him off at some point. I train dogs to wait through doorways not because I'm a leader but because its good manners and I don't want to be knocked over. Nobody in their right mind would allow their child to draw up the walls, go to bed when they want (well some may) and run riot around the home in general, you set some house rules and you are the parent so you are therefore in charge - so why is not the same for dogs? Of course it is - a dog needs boundaries. You either allow a puppy to run around the house chewing on things or you give him a puppy pen and set a boundary. The only time I may tell a client to chuck their dog out of the bedroom is if they have got issues with a very pushy dog with absolute no manners whatsoever. As a trainer, I try to avoid using buzz words such as dominance as its not required - I simply show a client how to use your body to communicate with your dog and the smile on their face speaks a thousand words as they suddenly see their dog do something for the first time!! Therefore guys, don't over complicate things, keep it simple and try to understanding your dog more. These programmes on the TV are there to make money and that's all, they are not a way of teaching someone how to handle their dog.
Personally, I don't like Caesar Milan because he uses electric shock collars and prong collars and therefore I won't watch it. On a final note before I leave my soapbox; Victoria Stilwell, although she is on the TV, I have actually worked with her and she is a fantastic trainer who does great work over in the states with many rescues and basically uses the same simple methods - understand that dog! Thanks for reading, Emma Collings, School For Paws
What is unfair in the whole debate is the way the positive reinforcement faction never ever give Jan Fennell or Cesar Millan any credit at all for the good things they have done.
ReplyDeleteFor example, those two have really highlighted the importance of changing the way you behave instead of blaming bad behaviour on the dog.
Most of the time, after all, it's us who get it wrong, and it is extremely helpful to be shown how your body language and the way you behave can affect your dog.
I had no idea I was sending my dog into a frenzy every time I came home, simply by going straight to him and giving him lots of attention.
I followed JF's advice and would take off my coat, go to the kitchen and then call him to me with a treat. Simple!
Ditto leaving - no fuss. Both Cesar and JF emphasise this and now it's accepted wisdom.
But when JF's book first appeared it was considered revolutionary because of these insights she provided.
Another vital tip was to quietly take the dog out of the room if it misbehaved, letting it back in a few minutes later.
I suppose this is deemed "punishment".
I didn't before realise that you should never comfort a dog when there are loud noises or fireworks , which is a natural human reaction. You have to act like a leader and not be afraid, then your dog won't be either. Again, this is now accepted wisdom. I never knew, for example, that a direct stare could be interpreted as threatening by a dog.
Forget the wolves controversy but just look at how right JF was about body language, telling us how to behave to defuse the situation.
She based her methods on Monty Roberts, the Horse Whisperer, who I suppose you could say "dominated" horses.
Well, his methods resulted in a lot more happy horses.
Cesar is criticised for "punishing" dogs by giving them a little jerk on the lead. Well, what do you do if your dog lunges aggressively at another dog walking past? Obviously, you have to do an immediate correction, and then let the lead go loose (vital to get it out of its "defence/attack" mode). I'd like to ask the anti faction what they would do in this situation.
I think they would keep the dog occupied with a treat at a distance - in fact I've seen this happening - or make it sit while the other dog went past.
But that way the dog is not learning what not to do and it is also missing out on what could turn out to be a friendly encounter, which is good for socialisation. And what happens if you have run out of treats!
I went to the website that the anonymous dog trainer provided in his post, and found some of the criticisms a bit silly.
They say they are against Cesar's way of walking dogs on short leads then go on to say how his methods don't engage the dog's mind, mentioning better activities the dog could do.
But you have to remember this is California and almost everywhere you have to keep your dog on a lead (they haven't got a doggie paradise like Wimbledon Common, where my dog runs free, swims in the ponds and socialises with new dogs and people every day).
It's terribly strict in the US. But someone who goes skateboarding with his dogs and walks them off lead in the forest is hardly likely to disapprove of things like agility, and so on.
Then, further down on that website there is a great spiel about setting boundaries, as if Cesar and JF didn’t consider this important, when this is their central tenet.
There are huge areas not covered by CM, such as socialisation and generally building a dog's confidence, which is vital because a confident dog is less likely to be aggressive towards another dog or a person.
But on the whole the advice he and JF give, to my mind, is sound.
They realise that dogs need to be given a firm set of boundaries, like children. They also show us how not to unwittingly encourage problem behaviour by our own behaviour.
Credit where credit's due, I say.
Julia Lewis
Loved Barry's post - he hit the nail on the head for me.
ReplyDeleteHey Julia, I have found the same thing. A 55 year old college teacher for 33 years, who always loved dogs, it was the DW Show which inspired me to start working with last chance problem dogs that no one else would help. After a few short years I have taken about 45 dogs who were on the euthanizing list for their "problems" and quickly and fairly easily (and safely) turned them around. 2 more just this last Halloween weekend!
ReplyDeleteThree weeks ago I had just picked up Cesar's new book "How to Raise the Perfect Dog from Puppyhood and Beyond" when I got a call from another independant rescuer who knew I didnt "do" puppies but was desparate to stop a 5 month old, once "cute", now "problem" dog from being taken to the shelter to be euthanized for the problems. Using the index I decided to try and see of the solutions inside worked. In 48 hours the problem behaviors were turned around. In one week the puppy had a new forever home.
The problem people have with Cesar is their selective hearing/reading, you are right. Cesar is the FIRST one to support the positive solution...when it works, when people do it right. He constantly reminds us to us the LEAST amount of energy that works with that dog, and it is easier to do when people are quickly responsive, consistant and proactive.
He also says, "ALL ways are good that do not harm the dog". No one can come up with any documentation from any vet showing that any dog helped by Cesar has been harmed. (The lawsuit? Just more twisting of the truth, because it was a trainer who asked to borrow Cesar's facility who harmed that dog. Cesar wasnt even there)!
If I say the word bike, meaning motorcycle when you think bicyle, we are going to have a failure to communicate which is where the problems come from, as every trainer has experienced. for instance:
Short leash? try LOOSE leash, emphasis walking by side not leading walk,except under special circumstances.
Shssing sound? try distraction, redirecting fixation from object, animal or human to owner for instructions.
Alpha roll? Of COURSE the alpha roll isnt all, it is about holding the animal inplace until the energy shifts for hyperactivity and uncomprehending reaction, to quietness and willingness to relax and respond to human direction.
Shock collars? Try e collars and be sure to ask the person if they have ever had one on to feel the buzzing or tingling. Again - a distraction device that Cesar did not use ever more then three times (and mostly 1-2 times) to distract the dog from (ONLY) life threatening fixations, and only used with three dogs during the whole (now six years of the hour long show.
Thanks to Cesar I now have every dog learn to not be afraid of crates, which they would be in should there be an emergency evacuation animal shelter, or should they need hospitalization. Also muzzles are a gift to remove fear in the humans and provide transition time. All gentle lessons from Cesar which have helped to save other dogs with no hope.
I own an over 3100 yahoo email list filled with the public archives of over 20,000 other members who have come in, worked to learn and correctly apply Cesar's way and moved on when their problems were solved.
I will continue to lead my dog in acceptable correct and appropiate behavior - to no knowck down the 85 year old grandmother by jumping up, to not attack and kill a smaller dog or family pet, to not bark so the neighbors complain forcing me to surrender the dog to be euthanized as a problem. To not eat dog poop but healthy food in healthy ways to not gain weight, to not bite the hand of the vet trying to save its life...
Some call that domination, I call that leading these rescued dogs to a long, healthy and happy life in forever homes!
I found JF's advice far too difficult to follow - I had one of her 'Listeners' out to my dog. She didn't even address the problem I'd asked for help with, just went through her script. I don't have time to eat biscuits out of my dogs bowl, and there is such a small space outside my front door when I went out before the dogs they were in the way so I couldn't turn around and lock up! Now they go out first, and relax on their loose leads while I turn and lock up.
ReplyDeleteAs for correcting an 'aggressive' dog, I ended up being bitten as he couldn't get to what he wanted to and turned on me instead. I had to add a muzzle to my box of tricks. Admittedly food treats didn't work - my dog simply trained me to feed him and lunged when he'd had enough treats thanks very much, putting on so much weight he had to spend a year on a diet.
What did work was removing him from a scene he was finding too difficult to cope with - adding distance and allowing him to adjust to the situation. He'll always have his moments, that's just him, but stopping the corrections meant I could repair the damage to my relationship with my dog, and now, nearly three years later, I'm a dog walker and that same dog comes out and meets lots and lots and lots of dogs, and he doesn't lunge out and bite, and nor does he turn and bite me. He's still grumpy, but most of the time he's able to put enough distance in to feel comfy with whatever situation I put him in. The distance is now down to mere centimetres with the vast majority of dogs.
If I'd tried to alpha roll him, he'd have bitten me.
Everyone needs to find something that works for themselves and their own dog.
I believe the tide is turning against methods that use domination and force. This behaviour science (for it is a science) has now become available to everyone and it is plain to see that using positive methods works. The positive methods have been quantified and proven.
ReplyDeleteI am a dog trainer and some people have told me that these kind methods are being soft and a dog needs discipline but you can reason with a dog. You can't say, 'do that one more time and you won't get your dinner', you can't say, 'do that one more time and I'll slap you'! The dog simply gets more confused.
Use the science that is available which really isn't that complicated. 'How dogs learn' by Birch & Bailey is the best book that covers this.
Training should be rewarding and fun.
Regarding Cesar Millan, there is an uncomfortable video on the net of him shoving a pair of clippers in a terrified dog's face. The idea is to 'flood' the dog's mind with fear until it gives in and allows the groomer to do her work. It's a bit like putting a huge spider in front of someone who has a spider fear. The dog is aggressive as a result of fear and Cesar clearly misses the dog's obvious body language!
A far better method would be to gently and gradually introduce this piece of equipment to the dog, when the dog reacts well he gets a treat. The whole experience becomes pleasurable for the dog. But, hey, it may not appear to work in half and hour!
Cesar Millan uses the old harsh methods to get a quick fix.
The tide is turning!
The problem with punshment based methods is that they supress the outward reaction but do nothing to change the underlying emotions that have caused that reaction.
ReplyDeleteTake, for example, a fear aggressive dog. If you take him around what he's scared of (dogs, people, etc.) he's going to attack.
A punishment based method would punish the attacking. Punish it enough and the dog will stop attacking. But it's not because he's not scared, it's because he's learnt that showing he's scared ens in punishment. In other words, he's more scared of the punishment than of the object. Hoeverpush the dog to much and he'll break, attacking again.
A positive based method would take the dog to within a "safe" distance of the object (a distance whe the dog knows the thing is there but far enough away that he's not scared) and reward the calm state that he's in. The trainer would then slowly move the dog closer to the object, always rewarding and always making sure the dog isn't over his threshold. It may take longer but the results will alst for longer as you're actually changing the dog's emotional reaction to that object. The dog no longer associates the object with a scary experience. He instead associates it with a positive experience.
I second the reccommendation for Jean Donaldson's books. A great book about all aspects of dog behaviour is "The Culture Clash" and I'd suggest it to any dog owner!
Really good article on the whole debate here...www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm
ReplyDelete"Personally, I don't like Caesar Milan because he uses electric shock collars and prong collars and therefore I won't watch it. On a final note before I leave my soapbox; Victoria Stilwell, although she is on the TV, I have actually worked with her and she is a fantastic trainer who does great work over in the states with many rescues and basically uses the same simple methods - understand that dog! Thanks for reading, Emma Collings, School For Paws"
ReplyDeleteI can completely agree with Emma's comments above because the prong collars for me are one of the main things that I find off-putting. Especially when you consider that it isnt mentioned that he is doing this, normally you have to really watch closely.