First timer

Hi Think Tank,

I’ve found you online and need some advice. My wife and I are thinking of getting a medium sized dog and we’re not bothered about what type it is, as long as he’s friendly and likes walks. We’ve never had a dog before and are thinking of getting a rescue dog but will we be allowed because this would be our first dog?

Do you know of any animal sanctuaries that we could contact in our situation?

Thank you.

Yours sincerely,

Mr Thomas, by email

Second opinion

Hi,

Recently we were approved by a well known Golden Retriever rescue society to adopt a dog from them, and a few weeks later I went and viewed a castrated Golden Retriever, which was a four hour round trip away. This dog was described as 'good with other dogs', and although in his write up it was stated that he had been put into rescue because he had reportedly bared his teeth at somebody, the rescue and foster carer didn't think that this was an issue.

When I went to see the dog, I took our four-year-old chocolate Lab bitch with use, who has been spayed. The two dogs were walked together and seemed to get on ok, and in actual fact, didn't take an awful lot of notice of each other once the initial sniffing had finished. After the walk we returned to the foster carer's home where the two dogs were allowed to play in the garden. The foster carer doesn't have another dog, but the assessment on this Golden's temperament was presumably carried out during his meetings with other dogs while on lead. I thought he was a beautiful dog, though didn't think he was pure Golden, but possibly had some collie in him as well, but if the dog was the right one for us then this wouldn't matter. His play was a little rough, but I know that this sometimes happens and that dogs will settle down after a while. Ruby, my Lab, went indoors though to 'escape' his attentions and he was put on a lead for a while, then later he was let off-lead again, and things seemed to become settled.

I decided to adopt this dog, and take him home. He travelled well in the back of the estate car with Ruby, and two hours later at 10.30 pm we arrived home. The dogs went into the garden first for a toilet break, then we went indoors. This is when the new dog turned into an animal that I hadn't expected. Within minutes, he had gone for Ruby when she took a toy from her toy box. He flew across the room to get to her to do this. I didn't think any damage had been done to her, but took the toy box up anyway. Then the dog turned his attention to his bed, which he 'bonked' so much that I took this up as well! His attentions then turned again to Ruby, who was by now on her bed. His play was lively to say the least. Anyway we eventually went to bed, and the new dog decided to join me on the bed, which I don't generally allow, but it was late and we were tired. Ruby has her own bed in my bedroom, and I hoped that I would be able to do the same with the new dog. We slept until 4.30am, when the new dog woke up and decided that he was going to 'play' with Ruby. She didn't want to do this, so I ended up putting new dog on lead and keeping him on until 7am when I fed the dogs their breakfast.

What followed was a total nightmare. New dog made continued dives onto Ruby with what at first looked like he was playing, then losing control of himself and going for her. He was put on the lead again. They later went into the garden and because new dog seemed calmer I let him off again, where he made several unprovoked aggressive attacks on Ruby. I couldn't see any immediate damage, but my main concern after checking Ruby out was to get in touch with the rescue and tell them I wanted to return the dog. I told them all that had happened, this dog was literally hanging off the side of Ruby's face, neck and head. We had to wait until the evening before the foster carer could be there to take him back, so at 6pm we left to do the two hour trip to return the dog. Ruby was on the back seat, looking more than a little traumatised after her day. The other dog screamed the place down and scratched to be let in when he was shut in the kitchen for a short while! Ruby just wanted to be near me all the time.

A week after all this happened Ruby starting scratching at the top of her head, neck and side of her face, and during the next two days wet eczema developed and we took her to the vet. During the trip to the vet, she tore her face open with her scratching, and it was so bad that when we reached the vet she was kept in overnight, while she was sedated, clipped over the large affected areas and given antibiotics and steroid cream. During the next week it was awful for her, and difficult trying to keep her from scratching, and we returned to the vet as arranged a week later where she was given another week's worth of antibiotics and a steroid injection. Thankfully today she was discharged, but this has left us £170 out of pocket, and last week my husband decided to try and claim off the rescue's insurance for the vet bills incurred. However the vet says he can't confirm one way or another whether a dog bite would have taken this long (a week) to cause the problems that it had, so won't support our claim. We are absolutely certain that as the trauma has occurred in the areas that Ruby was bitten, that damage even if it was to soft tissue was the cause of the problem.

Can anybody with veterinary experience give their opinion on this please? Coincidentally this afternoon we bumped into a walker also with a chocolate Lab bitch, who was similarly attacked a while ago, and developed wet eczema on the bite area a week after the attack.

This has really put us off getting another rescue dog, although our beautiful Ruby is a rescue herself, and came with issues, as most rescues do. However rescue societies need to do a proper assessment of dogs going up for rehoming, and owners handing their dogs over to rescue should be honest with the problems which they are handing over with their dog. I am an experienced dog owner and trainer, but have never witnessed the behaviour shown by this dog, during nearly 30 years of being around dogs.

Many thanks.

Name supplied, by email

Flat in or out?

Me and my partner have been thinking about getting a dog for a while and would like to rehome a rescue. I’m worried though that we won’t be able to get a dog from a rescue because we live in a flat.

We don’t have a garden of our own but there are communal garden areas and we do live close to a large park. We enjoy long walks in the countryside, too, so our dog wouldn’t just be walked in a park. We own our flat so don’t have to worry about getting permission from landlords.

If anyone who lives in a flat has successfully rehomed a rescue dog I’d be really keen to hear how easy it is.

Thank you.

Kayleigh Ash, by email

Catherine Gillie, Dogs Trust Assistant Field Director, advises...

At Dogs Trust we do not have blanket policies for rehoming and we would treat each case on an individual basis. Things that we may consider are : The flat its size and location, the surrounding area for exercise, family members, their other commitments, the type of dog considered age size and temperament exercise needs etc.

For example whilst it may be perfectly feasible for someone living in a ground floor flat, with nearby parks and garden to care adequately for a large breed dog throughout its life when they are perhaps working from home or at home with family all day, it would be very problematic for someone in the same circumstances in a second floor flat as a large breed pup would be problematic to house train without quick and easy access to a toilet area and an older dog may find stairs problematic but be too large to help up and down.

Living in a flat would certainly not prevent Dogs Trust from re homing a dog to a loving home, and we are happy to advise on potential problems and the suitability of specific dogs for flat dwellers.

Knitting needle in a haystack

Does anyone know of any knitting patterns to make German Shepherd toys? I am involved with GSD rescue and would love to make some Shepherd toys to sell to raise funds.

I know Alan Dart has patterns for lots of breeds but I can’t find one for the German Shepherd. It would need to be at least 10 inches or more, ideally.

Thanks very much,

Michelle Bingham, by phone

Calling the shots

Hi Dogs Today, 

I foster for a couple of rescues that import puppies and dogs to England from Ireland. This time around we got two adorable 12-week old puppies (pictured) which had already been given the first dose of their vaccinations. The brand used in Ireland was 'Vanguard'. When it came to booking the pups in for their second jab, our local vet told me that they had to start over because they used a different brand and the two weren't compatible. I called another who said the same thing. Thankfully, a third seemed to take a more common-sense approach and reassured me that there was absolutely no difference and that the puppies only needed the second half.

I am the only one who considers this an issue?

1. Can there really be such a fundamental difference in the contents of these dog vaccines; something that is clearly a standard drug?

2 . With all sort of illnesses and conditions potentially linked with vaccinations, isn't it irresponsible to insist on pumping two little puppies full of extra drugs that they might not need (aside from the two mandatory injections of course) for the sake of a brand name?

It smacks a little bit of pandering to the drugs companies or implementing a 'computer says no' policy for the sake of making an extra £10 for the full course of vaccinations.

Kind regards, 

Christina, by email



A Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons spokesperson says...

This isn’t a matter about which we offer vets specific advice as the decision over which vaccination to use is a matter of professional judgement for the individual veterinary surgeon. However, he or she should prescribe responsibly and with due regard to the health and welfare of the animal, and should  also take into account relevant information about the products themselves – for example, about contraindications or advice from the data sheets for the vaccines.  


A BSAVA spokesperson says...

The British Small Animal Veterinary Association (BSAVA) believes that vaccination plays a very valuable role in the control of infectious disease in companion animals. The BSAVA strongly supports the concept that a thorough risk /benefit assessment on an individual case basis should be discussed with clients when deciding on timing of vaccination and use of particular vaccines for particular animals.

The initial vaccinations given to a puppy require a series of injections to be given in order to induce a primary immune response to ensure the puppy is protected against the important diseases at an early age and throughout its lifetime.

The World Small Animal Veterinary Association (WSAVA), of which BSAVA is a member, has produced guidelines for the vaccination of dogs and cats which recommends initial vaccination at 8-9 weeks of age followed by a second vaccination 3-4 weeks later and a third vaccination given between 14-16 weeks of age.  Where puppies have been in a shelter environment or mixed with a number of animals of unknown disease status WSAVA recommend vaccination prior to or immediately on admission with repeat injections every 2 weeks until 16 weeks of age if the animal is still in the facility.

The problem of compatibility between different brands of vaccine is more complicated. There are differences in components between brands, some minor some significant, and different vaccines are now authorized with different vaccination schedules and duration of immunity.  While there may be theoretical reasons to assume that vaccination with different brands of vaccine should be effective in stimulating an immune response this is not something that has been tested, and could leave both the veterinary surgeon and client without support from the pharmaceutical company in the case of a “vaccine breakdown”. 

Catherine O'Driscoll, Canine Health Concern, says...

Unfortunately, and with the greatest respect to the veterinary profession, vets aren’t very well educated about immunology in college. They’re probably doing their best to provide advice, but in this case there is a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding. Dr Schultz, a leading player in the WSAVA Vaccine Guidelines Group, actually states publicly that vets aren’t qualified to offer advice on immunisation! This is probably why the RCVS and the BSAVA are so woolly in their answers – to save faces.

However, Dr Schultz –the independent scientist who actually conducted the duration of immunity studies to prove that we don’t need to vaccinate annually – only vaccinates his own dogs once as puppies, at 14-16 weeks, and he never repeats the exercise again. The scientific premise Dr Schultz established is that once a dog is immune to the core viral diseases (distemper, parvo and adenovirus), he is immune for years or life.

The trouble is that if you vaccinate earlier than 14-16 weeks, the vaccine won’t necessarily work.

The question then arises … why do we have to give a series of vaccines to puppies? The answer is ‘just in case’. The thing is, puppies benefit from ‘maternal immunity’. This is a temporary immune system given by the mother. Newborns don’t have an immune system, the mother passes on immunity to their young until their own immune system develops. In dogs, maternal immunity doesn’t necessarily wane before the pups are 14-16 weeks old. The problem is that if you vaccinate a puppy below this age, maternal immunity might cancel the vaccine out, leaving the pup unprotected.

However, we all want to get our puppies out there and socialised, and we are also looking at the pups coming from a more risky shelter environment, so vaccine manufacturers have come up with the multi-jab concept in the hope that some protection will be provided sooner. The first booster (at a year) is designed to provide immunity to the puppies who didn’t get immunity through their puppy vaccines, which was potentially blocked through maternal immunity.

So, do you need to start again if you’re using different brands?

A full puppy shot series would cover distemper, parvovirus, adenovirus (hepatitis), and probably Leptospirosis.

I can think of no reason why a different brand would make any difference in the cases of distemper, parvo and adenovirus. All brands introduce the same modified live viruses into the puppy in order to produce an immune response. ‘Modified’ means that the vaccine is attenuated (heated) to ensure (hopefully) that it can’t cause the disease you’re vaccinating against. They then add various substances such as cow serum, formaldehyde, peanut oils, antibiotics, and so on. None of these is designed to interfere with the immune response, but to enhance it. And each vaccine is only licensed when the manufacturer has submitted data to show that the vaccine works.

It’s not as though they are using different forms of viruses. All vaccines would contain the same viruses – they’d have to in order to protect against the viruses out there that they tell us are a risk. Some of the companies even share the same seed stock.

It can’t even be because vets are worried that the previous brand didn’t work. One shot, if the puppy’s immune system is capable of responding, will provide protection for years or life.

I would think that the difference, if there is one, might be the different serovars in the Leptospirosis component of the vaccine. Leptospirosis is a range of over 200 bacterins, and vaccine manufacturers include two or three of the serovars – the ones they consider are relevant in any particular area. However, the WSAVA has stated that outside of America, no-one really knows which strains are around in each particular country. This is why they call the Lepto vaccine ‘non-core’ (optional). They further state that it’s not very effective, it’s short-lived (3-9 months), and it’s the one most associated with severe adverse reactions. Added to this, leptospirosis is thought by the WSAVA to be a rare disease.

Where the BSAVA says, “different vaccines are now authorized with different vaccination schedules and duration of immunity”, I can’t see this as anything other than a red herring. ALL the core vaccines are licensed with at least one year’s duration of immunity (i.e., are supposed to protect for at least a year), but others are said to protect for 3-4 years. This makes no difference to whether one brand can be used as a follow up to another for these puppies.

However, this may be more to the point. They say: “While there may be theoretical reasons to assume that vaccination with different brands of vaccine should be effective in stimulating an immune response this is not something that has been tested, and could leave both the veterinary surgeon and client without support from the pharmaceutical company in the case of a “vaccine breakdown”.

Basically, what they’re saying is that although it should be ok to use different brands, if the vaccine fails to protect (no manufacturer will guarantee that a vaccine will provide protection), then they could wriggle out of paying out or compensating if the puppy gets a disease the vaccine failed to protect against. This, however, has very little to do with switching brands, but more to do with the vaccine – of whatever brand – failing to protect in known instances, and no-one wanting to take responsibility for it.

Having quoted the WSAVA, the BSAVA failed to include something else the WSAVA says, and this is the statement that starting a full puppy series again if an adult dog has ‘lapsed’ (i.e. those vets who still think a dog needs an annual booster), is dangerous and unnecessary. I would think it would be even more dangerous for a young puppy whose immune system is immature and fragile.


A spokesperson for the Veterinary Medicines Directorate says...

The VMD regularly receives queries concerning the situation where an animal has received the first dose of a primary vaccine course at one veterinary practice and then transfers under new ownership to a second veterinary practice for subsequent doses. In such situations, as long as no suspected adverse reactions were experienced by the animal, it is preferable to use the same vaccine for the subsequent doses as this is how the safety and efficacy of the vaccine will have been supported for the authorisation of that product.

However, where this is not possible, the primary vaccination schedule can be completed using a different vaccine which contains the same ingredients, including types (strains) of virus/bacteria and at an appropriate vaccination schedule.

It should be borne in mind that to complete a primary vaccination schedule with a different vaccine is off-label use, as the data presented to the Regulatory Authorities to support a complete primary vaccination schedule will have been generated using a single product.