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Saturday 17 December 2011

Double trouble

Here's my story of my 18 month old female Border Collie, Hollie.

Basically, a year ago, when she was nine months old, I bought her off Gumtree.com from an older lady, who said she didn't have the time for her anymore, she also said she was good on the lead and with other dogs, and children. How wrong was that!

First night we had her in the house, she was very, very timid, however, gradually she got used to being around myself, and my girlfriend. Then, out of the blue, she would just do the toilet in one specific area of the living room, in the corner, at times we didn't even know she had done it as she gave no indication that she needed to go out to the toilet. We got her a training mat, etc which seemed to work, but eventually we managed to get her to go out the back yard. The original owner also stated that Hollie (who was called Lady at the time) was excellent being kept outside and she didn't bark and such like. When Hollie was put out the back, she went absolutely crazy, barking, clawing, scratching, etc. I think that it was due to the separation between Hollie and myself, yet I couldn't sort it out. When it came to walks, that was completely different to what the original owner had told me... Hollie, when she was out on the lead, she would pull so hard, that it was like she was taking me for a walk. As we had only just got her I was rather hesitant of just letting her off the lead up the park. When we passed other dogs, she would start jumping, and screeching loudly, almost like a whimper, but louder and excited. Her body language was hard to decipher, she would be excited, but her body would be rigid with her ears erect and she would try and charge at passing dogs. After walks, and when it was time for bed, we would leave her in the livingroom/kitchen, with some toys and plenty fresh water, we would only wake up to the whole place chewed to pieces, got to the point, if we were going out she had to be physically put outside, or muzzled if being kept inside.

After many months went by, she got a bit more calm in the house, though the chewing didn't stop, but it got easier for her to be kept out the back, walking was still a bit of a nightmare.

We opted to get another Border Collie, this time it was a neutered dog - Shadow he was two years old. When we first introduced them together, it was against all advice and suggestions, rather than gradually, we just threw them together and it took a few days, but from showing teeth they went to cuddling up and being playful - a result by any standard I would say.
Shadow is a fantastic dog, he didn't pull on the lead, ignored other dogs, he even plays fetch, lets you know when he needs out, etc. Couldn't ask for a better dog. Best of all he doesn't chew.
We've had both dogs for a good while now, but it's only more recently that the two of them are playing off each other. By this I mean, Hollie thinks she's top dog, though I let her know she isn't. Shadow accepts he's at the bottom of the chain. However, that doesn't stop him getting excited and bouncing all over the place. Basically, Hollie will occasionally attempt to go for Shadow but I put a stop to that. He's actually scared of her, and they need to be fed separately. Hollie gets her food in the kitchen, and Shadow gets his bowl of food and water on the bottom step in the hall. Granted, he goes and eats his food no problem at all - only when you close the door, yet Hollie won't eat unless Shadow is present in the room. Hollie has a tendency that when everyone is calm, she will come up to me, and try and jump up, then when I tell her to get down, Shadow looks up and sees Hollie getting excited, so then he starts to get energetic and it ends up I have to shout at them as they don't listen.
When it comes to walking them, it takes about 20 minutes to get their leads/harnesses on as they just go completely ballistic. When we are on a walk up the park, Hollie will still act up, but now it's like she's trying to go for the dog, she barks, and attempts to charge the dog, when Shadow sees this he does the same, his only reaction is when Hollie does something. He never used to pull, but unless he is on a harness, he pulls like mad.
At night, I try to keep them in the kitchen, but Shadow will do all he can to prevent going in the kitchen with Hollie. If I am able to get him in the kitchen, it's a result, if not, then it ends up with Hollie going in the kitchen, and Shadow being kept in the hall.
Many thanks.
Kindest Regards
Christopher Peacock

Hi Christopher
Does sound like you’ve got a lot on your hands! Where are you based roughly? Have you tried any local dog trainers yet? Have you had dogs before? It would have been easier to sort out Hollie’s problems first before you got Shadow, but I’m sure it is still possible to sort things out but it’ll mean a lot of work with each dog separately.
I’ve put the question on think tank now but I’m sure people will want to know where you are based.
Best wishes
Beverley

Beverley
Yes, it can be rather tedious at times. I'm based in Woodvale, North Belfast. Unfortunately, I can't seem to pinpoint local trainers, plus the cost is more than I can cover at the moment. I have grown up with dogs, yes, however this is the first time since leaving my parental home that I have owned my own dogs. I agree, it would have been a lot easier to help Hollie on her own, but we just jumped in feet first.
I'll try and keep checking the post as oft as I can, though I don't have internet access in the home, so I can only keep updated when I frequent the library.
Many thanks.
Kindest Regards
Christopher Peacock

So folks, it is Christmas - are there any lovely positive kindly trainers in Belfast that can help Christopher sort this all out?

6 comments:

  1. Seems to be a lot going on here, if you want to contact us on 01889 577058 Mon-Fri or by email info@bordercollietrustgb.org.uk we can put you in touch with someone who understands collies and can discuss further

    Ben Wilkes
    Border Colie Trust GB

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  2. Please get the advice of a qualified behaviourist - look on the APBC website for one in your area. Ensure that you see someone who is well versed in positive training methods as these will be more helpful to you than any aversive (punishment) based methods. Any advice you get from the internet, even well meaning, MAY not address the issues you are experiencing as we cannot see what is actually going on in your home. I myself have two dogs with what I like to call "training needs" and they are hard work, but I've seen a behaviourist, have access to three fabulous trainers and I am seeing improvements. Good, good luck.

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  3. Collies are usually very sensitive creatures. It sounds to me like Hollie is a very stressy girl and needs to be backed off to let her stress/adrenalin levels drop.

    A couple of things jump out at me: "Hollie thinks she's top dog, though I let her know she isn't." and "Hollie will occasionally attempt to go for Shadow but I put a stop to that" I wonder how you are doing this? You may well be inadvertently reinforcing her fears. Loose lead walking will never be achieved while she has fears. There may also be an element of learned behaviour in there. She is scared of other dogs, so shows fear aggression. This works, so is reinforced.

    I honestly think it would be the right thing to do to get in a GOOD behaviourist who will be able to visit you and see the environment in which you are your dogs live. By good I mean one that is up to date with modern methods and does not spout outdated 'pack leadership' and 'dominance' nonsense. Finding someone at www.apbc.org.uk would be a good start :)

    There will not be a quick fix, but management at least can be put in place to make everyone's life easier while you work on a behaviour modification plan.

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  4. First off, you need to remember that everybody's perception of a 'good dog' is different, especially across the generations - my grandfather's dogs were all 'good' because they went for a walk, and were otherwise quiet. My dog is good because he's lively, exuberant, happy to be alive; we go for walks, we play chase & keep away, and he adores agility, and a good snuggle.
    You also need to remember, different generations will see things differently, not least because often "older" people cannot see and/or hear as well as those who are younger.

    As for Hollie, it sounds like she has separation anxiety, resource guarding issues, and fear based aggression around 'strange' dogs - when you said "Her body language was hard to decipher, she would be excited, but her body would be rigid with her ears erect and she would try and charge at passing dogs" - that is her telling you and the other dog that she is uncomfortable and she doesn't want the dog to come any closer to her. At a guess, this will either be because of a lack of socialisation, or a bad socialisation experience as a puppy.

    People could give you advice through this blog, and on the Dogs Today Facebook page, but, personally speaking, I think that would be irresponsible - your family needs to see a qualified behaviourist to help Hollie; they will be able to assess the situation, and help you to work at a pace that Hollie is comfortable with.
    You don't say where you live, but the Association of Pet Dog Trainers has a listing of all registered members on their website (http://www.apdt.co.uk/local_dog_trainers.asp). You will need to discuss Hollie's issues with your local behaviourist, and I would also suggest going to sit in on one of their classes - while the UK APDT does assess members, there will be some who flaunt the rules and do not abide by the code of practise (if you should find someone like this, please let the APDT know so that they can take corrective action).

    There will be plenty of blog posts about how to find a competent trainer or behaviourist - here is one I have written as a starting point to help you help Hollie: http://pawsitivelytraining.wordpress.com/2011/10/01/how-do-you-find-a-competent-dog-trainer-or-behaviourist/

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  5. great level headed advice there. I second the suggestion that you stay away from internet advice and see a trainer sooner rather than later. I suspect the old lady did no socialisation with poor Hollie and told you what you wanted to hear.Find a compassionate trainer who can help Hollie sort out her world.

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  6. Lots of good advice already about getting a suitable qualified behaviourist. I'd just like to add, don't give up hope. You are doing the right thing in seeking advice and from what you've said you are prepared to work with your dogs to sort things out. Border Collies are fantastic dogs and bright enough to respond well to the correct training. Some good advice from the right person will set you on your path. Good luck!

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